Community Organising and Bi+ Visibility

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• Episode Transcript

  Chad Barnier

  But yeah, I was telling you just as Steve jumped in, we are so excited that this is our first ever guest show because you are the reason any of this exists. Like we came together through SBN. SBN is only possible because of you and just so eternally grateful for everything you are. Like you make my heart so every time I see your name online, like, that's my Amber.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Amber (they/them)

  No, I'm just gonna cry. Really beautiful.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah.

  Chad Barnier

  You

  Steve Spencer

  Even today, so I had our NAPWHA board meetings. That's the peak national HIV body here in Australia. And what, two years ago, zero Bi+ representation on the national stage on the HIV sector. And today, every second minute, it was Bi+, Bi+, Bi+, Bi+. Across the country, programs being introduced, peer navigators being trained on Bi+ issues, and it all started at Sydney Bi+ Network.

  It literally, literally all started there.

  Amber (they/them)

  I have chills. That's incredible. Like just the way Bi+ communities have grown, not just in Sydney, but across Australia over the last little while is just phenomenal.

  Chad Barnier

  Hmm.

  Steve Spencer

  Mm-hmm.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah, well, so we'll get into like the the nitty gritty of it all. But we like to kind of start off with a bit of light banter and then into what was your by highlight of the week your by light of the week. So, Amber, do you want to be a part of our by light section? What was your by light of the week?

  Amber (they/them)

  My Bi-Light of the Week was when a friend brought me this really, really cool sticker. So we met up at a cafe and they brought me this sticker that says, Furious. And it's just like a giant, huge, it's huge. It's like, buy flag, big print. And I just slapped it on top of my, like on my laptop. And they gave me a whole stack of extras that they had snagged from the Green's office. And I took them into work and I just put them on

  Chad Barnier

  that.

  Chad Barnier

  Yes.

  Amber (they/them)

  on the table in the kitchen, in the shared kitchen area. And by the end of the day, they were gone. I don't know, like, so my by-light was just people were matching them up because we are everywhere and people want that. They want to see that representation. They want puns. They want to be part of it. So that, yeah, that was my by-light. It was very exciting.

  Steve Spencer

  Yes.

  Chad Barnier

  That is so cool. I love that. And also by furious, fantastic, fantastic reclamation of by curious. That's like, and we, love our by curious, peeps, but it's a great, reclamation of that phrase. love that. Steve, what was your Bi-Light for the week?

  Amber (they/them)

  my god.

  Steve Spencer

  Ha ha ha ha ha

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah.

  Steve Spencer

  I'm going to jump off Amber's by light. So, you know, I work in the HIV sector, of course, and we recently had the global AIDS conference, the international AIDS conference over in Munich. And I sent over people to do my bisexual bidding. And at this conference, there's about 12,000 delegates. My friend printed off heaps of flyers for Bi+ HIV positive people.

  Chad Barnier

  Mm-hmm.

  Steve Spencer

  threw them around the conference and they were working at sort of the front desk as a volunteer and had a pile of them and by the end of each day they got rid of about a hundred of them and It was just people being and people were remarking like we've never seen Bi+ representation at these conferences You know, how do I connect? You know, what can I do or even just like a thank you just for to for our community to be seen in these spaces and it truly is the case of you put it out there and we snap it right up. It's awesome.

  Chad Barnier

  What I love about both of those stories is it really is just a one person doing a thing. You know what mean? One person saying, you know what, I'm to take a risk, take a chance, kind of jump off without kind of like being too cautious and going, I'm going to do this and been received so well. And like one person putting off a hundred things or one person having 50 stickers or whatever. That's such a seemingly such a small thing to do yet for somebody else to receive it.

  Steve Spencer

  Literally.

  Chad Barnier

  That's so cool. That's awesome. My Bi-Light of the Week I shared just before a friend of mine made us these beautiful Taylor Swift Eras Tour style, "Bicon" bracelets made one for myself and for Steve. I also shared this podcast and shared some of our social graphics and assets and media publicly on social media and I

  Steve Spencer

  That's it.

  Chad Barnier

  Steve loves when I say assets, I work in marketing. So assets is like, industry term, guess. but I had colleagues sharing it who like may or may not be queer and their, their friends and their social circles who may or may not be queer. don't know. I'm it's not my business. but sharing those to their audience because they support me and that's really wonderful, but it's just so cool. Like to be in a workplace where other people are willing to be publicly supportive of this work that we do, which is super cool.

  Steve Spencer

  That's awesome, Chad.

  Amber (they/them)

  I love that.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah, super cool. Love it.

  Steve Spencer

  I have a second bi-light. Chad snuck around in the middle of the night and left this t-shirt in my letterbox. So we have merch. I'm not sure if we'll have it on sale anytime soon, but I reckon we will have some awesome merch out.

  Chad Barnier

  We will have merch. Absolutely. This is more of like a networking tool. that they're okay for people who are listening to the audio, not watching YouTube. It's our logo on a t-shirt, but it's also a QR code. And because I work in marketing, I want to know how people find us. And so that QR code has specific, like URL parameters that would tell me that, you saw Steve or Chad in person and took a photo of that QR code.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah, that's one of my KPIs is it now, Chad? This is how you're monitoring me. Just, I know if you were wearing the shirt today, Steve, because you got very low engagement with your QR code.

  Chad Barnier

  Yes, it is. Yeah.

  Well, the cool thing is like we hang out in queer circles and we engage in queer circles that aren't necessarily bisexual specific. and being that kind of, we, we say a bit, the Bi lighthouse is so important and being someone who is so out and proud and so active in the work that you do and that we do, felt like what an opportunity if people want to support the community, support it, take a photo of the QR code and come subscribe to the podcast.

  Amber (they/them)

  And you never know who sees that. Like I remember this time where I was at a queer conference and a friend and I had ducked out to go grab lunch and we were waiting to cross the road and I had a Bi flag badge on something that seems so simple. But someone who wasn't even at the conference was just walking by, saw my badge, stopped me was like, my gosh, I love your badge. I'm bi. I never see that anywhere. Like, where did you get it? And it was this beautiful connection moment. So

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah.

  Amber (they/them)

  You know, not only is it a way to, you know, get the word out and share, you know, what it is that the podcast is all about, but you just never know who's going to see it and who's going to listen. It's really powerful.

  Steve Spencer

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah, absolutely. So our next kind of like part of the podcast is a little bit more of a topical, timely segment. The idea is that give it to me Bi is to kind of provide a Bi perspective on some things that are in the news or that are in media or just to kind of just blankly call out this is some Bi representation that has occurred or isn't occurring well, etc.

  Steve, have you got anything that has come up in the last week, last two weeks or so, that you wanted to talk about or, or if you don't, I've got a couple in the bank.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah, I've got one. I actually wrote three down. What were they? The first one was.

  Chad Barnier

  Great, I love that. I did a panic list. was like, my gosh, I need to find something ASAP.

  Steve Spencer

  I've got Julia Fox, just because I'm everyone's obsessed with Julia Fox at the moment, but I found it really interesting. Julia Fox, was very proudly out as bisexual for many years and then recently, came out as lesbian. And I find it really exciting watching people go through their own personal journey, their own understanding and watching her explore her sapphic attraction and really embody it. It's, it's been a really joyful thing to watch.

  Chad Barnier

  Mmm!

  Steve Spencer

  Next was Miley Cyrus. I feel like I'm predictable. feel like I'm getting really predictable. But Miley was just... Miley... How does Miley identify?

  Chad Barnier

  Pretty sure I'm pansexual.

  Amber (they/them)

  Pansexual

  Steve Spencer

  So Miley was just inducted as a Disney legend and again just watching some some Bi+ excellence and the way again that that Miley gets to just be herself and and show her incredible talent on such a huge platform and huge stage and be so unashamedly herself.

  You know Chad, you and I, often talk about how, you know, we advocate and we talk really loudly about these things. And I know for myself, like personally, I do all of this so that people can just live their lives. And it's really nice. It was really cool watching, watching Miley up on that stage. Yeah.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah, I love that she really carved out a path for themselves. And we always talk about like, you don't need to go and bang a drum, you don't need to turn up as the typical blue hair bisexual or whatever it might be. You can turn up as your version of yourself and also be bisexual or pansexual, whatever. And that is the right way to turn up. And as someone who turns up as Miley does,

  and has experiences through the Disney machine. Those two things somehow still aligned, even though you would think the Disney machine, which has previously spat out people like Miley and left them left them in the cold. It's pretty cool to see that on it. I don't know how Disney view it, but yeah, that's cool.

  Steve Spencer

  totally.

  But by the way, my hair was pink, it was never blue.

  Amber (they/them)

  I have a blue hair phase, so I did feel a little attacked. That's okay, I forgive you.

  Chad Barnier

  Nice, I've had red and blonde and black and now my natural brown. Amber, do you have any current events that have popped up in the last week or two that you might want to provide a Bi-perspective on?

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, the big one on my mind in the news cycle is the New South Wales Equality Bill. It's a bill that independent Alex Greenwich has brought to New South Wales Parliament. It's an omnibus bill, which means that it includes a lot of different components to really try to address some of the disparities that exist for LGBTIQ plus communities in New South Wales. And one of them

  Chad Barnier

  absolutely.

  Steve Spencer

  Thank you.

  Amber (they/them)

  In my opinion, one of the most important aspects of that legislation is getting bisexuality added into the New South Wales anti-discrimination legislation. That's something that Bi+ advocates have been really, really pushing for for many years. And unfortunately, the debate on the bill has been delayed by Labor until September or October.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah.

  Amber (they/them)

  which is pretty devastating because these are, and that bill, the equality bill is not just addressing discrimination against bisexuals. It's meant to make processes better for trans folks getting their gender markers changed for identification. It's intended to address unnecessary surgeries against folks with innate variations of sex characteristics, like really, really important legislation. And New South Wales is so far behind. So it's so far behind. So it's really devastating that people think it's OK that these conversations don't have to happen and think that they can wait, because really they can't. Lives depend on legislation like this. So it's a pretty big one.

  Chad Barnier (17:32.569)

  Absolutely. And a delay of months may seem trivial to some people. and I assume people outside of the community might might see that as like, yes, couple months, like, what are you worrying about? But it really can't have such a massive impact. And also what's to say that it doesn't come September, come October, come November, a couple more months, let's just kick it down the road a little bit further, which it has been for how long now already, it's been already too long. Yeah.

  Amber (they/them)

  really long time. Yeah, absolutely.

  Steve Spencer

  So Amber, I wanted to ask, so the current landscape of anti-discrimination law in New South Wales, you mentioned that bisexuals aren't protected by that. Could you tell us a little more about that?

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what that means is that bisexual folks and really anyone who is attracted to more than one gender can't access the same processes underneath the anti-discrimination legislation. you know, there's no, those processes are not easy for anyone. And when you can't access them because you're attracted to more than one gender, it really changes the length of processes that you can go through and cost. So they can be pretty lengthy and costly processes. And by not having it covered by anti-discrimination legislation, it means you've got to go through different processes. And it also, I think there's a message there that tells us we aren't worthy of having our rights protected. And that is very significant.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah, it's crazy because gay, lesbian, I believe also trans people are protected under that law and the only group missing are multigender attracted people. It's quite insane to think that it's 2024 and we are still seeing that sort of discrimination.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah, I wonder if that is a hangover from a time where people thought that bisexuality fell under the banner of gay liberation and gay rights, where it is separate. And as you just described, the processes would be markedly different and involve whole different processes. I wonder if that the hangover of like, you just

  behind a gay or half gay or whatever. If that's been the delay and why it hasn't happened previously.

  Amber (they/them)

  I think you're spot on and I see and I hear from a lot of people that they just don't understand that bisexuality or pansexuality is distinct and they are their own and they are valid in their own right. And so I think that when I've had conversations with people about anti-discrimination legislation, they've said, well, if you're being discriminated against, well isn't that just because you're kind of gay? And it's like, no, that's actually not it at all. And so having to have what can sometimes feel like 101 conversations with people about bisexuality being its own sexuality. Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (20:39.837)

  Hmm. I love that you said 101. That's something that we've talked about previously. and actually we've talked about outside of this podcast for, for years is, is, isn't it time to talk 102? Like, why aren't we there yet? And like, we, I feel like we almost concurrently have to do both simultaneously have to do both because there are people who are just not going to, be at the same speed or like, at the same level of understanding as others. And if you ready for 102, you're probably, I know this sounds perhaps reductive. Most people talking one or two are probably in the community.

  Amber (they/them) (21:22.991)

  Yeah. Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (21:24.737)

  which is unfortunate, which is, I mean, to our point before we were talking about colleague support and talking about putting out flyers and stickers in break rooms and in workplaces. There are more bisexual people out there than the folks realise. because of many different reasons of Bi invisibility, and we're about to get into Bi visibility month, getting very close.

  Steve Spencer

  Woo!

  Chad Barnier

  it could just take a bit of a bit of a, let's all stand up together and let's just kind of be counted. We talk a lot about being counted and, being visible and being obvious if it is safe to do so. And I think if people are out and are having those conversations in those spaces in it could be ledges.

  legislative, that's always the hardest word to say legislative circles, or political circles or council circles. yeah, Suzy down the halls bisexual. Let's get her in here. Suzy, what do have to say? well, look at all these great community organisations that this is what they have to say. And like, it could just be a really great way to shortcut that conversation and advocate for us.

  Chad Barnier

  Amber you really outdid Steve and I because Steve had Miley Cyrus and I was about to talk about Emily in Paris.
  
  Steve Spencer

  no! Let's not. Can we not? I'm putting my foot down at Emily in Paris. I'm so sorry.

  Chad Barnier

  Well, Amber, let's jump into maybe like the topic proper for the episode. Welcome officially to the podcast. We are so excited to have you here. Could you please introduce yourself and all the ways that you identify that appropriate for the conversation.

  Amber (they/them)

  Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so, excited to be here with you both. My name is Amber. My pronouns are they, them. I'm currently joining you from Wallumedegal Land. And I've been based in so-called Sydney for nearly 10 years now. It must be getting close to 10 years. But I grew up in Colorado on Cheyenne, Ute, Cheyenne and Apache lands.

  I sometimes don't feel that fussed about labels, but then other times feel really passionately attached to them. And I think that really depends on the context, that depends on who I'm talking to. And sometimes it depends on how I'm feeling that day. So generally, I use Bi+ to describe myself, but I'm happy with bisexual, pansexual, queer. Right now I'm really digging gender queer as a way to describe my gender. I think that is feeling right for me right now. But I think most important, I'm just so proud to be Bi+ and trans.

  Chad Barnier

  Love.

  Absolutely. Fucking snaps. Amber, we discussed before we kind of started recording proper. Steve and I are so excited to have you here. The reason this podcast exists at all is because of the work that you do. The Sydney Bi+ Network is where Steve and I found each other, working on projects there and, engaging with the community there, finding ourselves there. we've talked previously about, it was the first time we've been in a room where you just had this bizarre sense of ease that you never felt you knew you wanted or needed, but you just enveloped you as you walked into a space going, why everyone here gets it. And, props to you. created that space. wonder, for the people listening at home, can you tell us your journey to SBN? How did that begin? How did you end up at Sydney Bi+ Network?

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, yeah, that's a really great question. I think firstly, I want to say that Sydney Bi+ Network is one of the greatest loves of my life. I have met just some of the best people through being involved, met both of you through being involved. And it's just such a stunning place for people to be themselves and for us to come together and do really cool shit for the community.

  So to answer your question, I think we've gotta take us back in time to about 2017. So folks in so-called Australia will probably remember that 2017 was a really, really, really difficult year for queer folks because that was the year of the Marriage Postal Survey. And I was involved in a number of community groups at the time.

  Chad Barnier

  And for context, the marriage postal survey is necessarily was fighting for marriage equality. There was a big plebiscite and they went out to the public to to vote on on whether or not we should have marriage equality. It was extremely divisive, extremely triggering for wide sway swaths of the community across the entire country.

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, it was a really, really tough time for folks. So yeah, was involved in a number of community groups at the time and just really consistently felt like a fraud as a bisexual in those spaces. Like I remember thinking, I hope no one finds out that I'm in a relationship that looks straight because they're gonna think I don't belong and that I'm not part of this. So I obviously had some really internalised bullshit messaging around bisexual people impacting me. And so that was maybe one of the most formative times of my life that got me consistently thinking about why Bi+ spaces and Bi+ specific communities were so important. So then fast forward into 2018, I was finishing my master's degree and had like a million things on and I thought, you know what, now's a really good time to organise an event because I don't have enough that I'm doing.

  Steve Spencer

  It's just a master's degree, mean, like, just plenty of spare time.

  Amber (they/them)
  
  So I thought, it's totally fine. and thought I really want to organise an event for Bi+ Visibility Day. And then I really got thinking, thinking about it and sitting with it more. And I felt really, really worried about hosting or organising an event without having some of the infrastructure, community infrastructure to go around it. So I thought, fuck, if we do this whole event, like it might be beautiful. I want it to be beautiful. I want people to feel seen and heard and to be able to connect. But if people just go home afterwards and don't have a place to connect, that's, you know, maybe not particularly safe. And kind of parallel to that.

  I was really, really looking for Bi+ spaces myself. Coming off of what I had experienced in 2017, I was so desperate for Bi+ specific anything really. And I had attended, like I went to a few Bi+ meetups. They were specifically for women and I was going through a whole gender crisis at the time. So as lovely as those spaces were, they weren't for me. They were also mostly in alcohol-fuelled And again, even though was really nice to go out and dance and just have a really good time, it wasn't really what I was looking for. So honestly, I just put a call out to the internet and I was like, are there any other bisexuals out there? I posted it in all of these queer and feminist groups I was part of and I could not believe the amount of people that got back to me. They were like, holy shit, I've been wanting this.

  Where has this been? we know they've got really cool stuff in Melbourne, but we haven't seen anything in Sydney for a really long time. this is so needed. So yeah, I guess I guess that's really how it all started. And none of it would have even like gotten off of the ground if it weren't for the people that got back to me and got to organising with me alongside me right from the very beginning. So yeah, that's that's how it all started. We launched in September 2018 and have been going strong ever since.

  Chad Barnier

  No way. So almost six years. Wow. That's insane.

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, yep, almost six years.

  Steve Spencer

  That's crazy. And but I just love, and I hear this a lot from advocates and especially also from Bi+ people, just like, want this thing. Where is it? All right, I'm going to make it. And you made it.

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, yeah. you know, like reflecting on all of it, I think at that time, I was so angry. I was so angry that those spaces for us didn't exist.

  Steve Spencer

  Hell yeah!

  Amber (they/them)

  I was so angry that I didn't see programs for us from queer organisations. You know, I was angry at everything. And don't get me wrong, there's still a lot that I feel really angry about.

  Steve Spencer

  Bi Furious!

  Amber (they/them)

  Bi Furious, hence the sticker. But I think what really actually keeps me going is the love that I have for community and the love in the relationships that I've developed for community. And that's actually what sustains me in the work. It's not really the anger anymore. It's the love.

  Chad Barnier

  I am so intrigued by that. I had a whole other tangent I wanted to go down about how to begin and kind of take that seed of an idea. However, let's focus on that because there is, there's often the fury, there's often a frustration and anger. Are you fucking kidding me about being in this community and having certain challenges or reality of your of your life. How do you focus that? How do you not burst out and go, I'm so fucking pissed off all the time. How do you harness that energy and turn it into something for good? And does it always have to be for good? Can you just rage?

  Amber (they/them)

  Yeah, I think you absolutely can just rage. I think that anger is absolutely justified in so many cases. And I do think that a lot of marginalised people get demonised for having anger, which, you know, that's not at all what I'm about. And so I am very careful when I talk about that line between love and anger. But I think for me, that love has really grown from the relationships that I've built in community, the people that I organise with, and getting to know folks and having really, really meaningful conversations about our values and what's the future we want for community. And from that, I think that's where the love comes from. It's grounded in relationships.

  Chad Barnier

  love that you say values, because that is something that I know to be true of you. And something that really took me kind of a moment to catch up to when I started to connect with Sydney Bi+ network. I have always considered myself a values based person. But I guess almost on a on an idealistic plane, right?

  When I discovered Sydney Bi+ Network and I would turn up to community meetups or planning days and then after joining the leadership team, leadership events and, and planning committees. One thing I noticed from day one was that you were always values first. It didn't matter if it meant that you were financially unable to recoup. It didn't matter if it meant that certain stories didn't get told. It meant that.

  the most equitable version of an event or a space or a an experience was had. And it has been one of the most inspiring things to witness and something that I don't think I'll ever be able to match in my lifetime. I it's something that I try to to live by but I fall short of all the time. But you are my kind of aspirational benchmark of that is how you be values led in the space. How do you as someone creating a space for the first time and, and forgive me if it's not the first thing that you've done in organising. How do you hold true to that despite all the extra challenges that come with doing that?

  Amber (they/them)

  I think for me, the first thing is always acknowledging and knowing, and I guess sitting with the discomfort that I'm going to fuck up and we're all going to fuck up. And that like, even when we are values driven, we fuck up and just sitting with that and like feeling okay to explore what that means and feeling okay to take accountability for that. and acknowledging the impacts that that has. I think that sits at the core of it because it's not about being better than anyone or it's not about organising in a better way than anyone. It's about having conversations with people about what we really care about. And also, really learning from other movements. So like we sit in a context of like really rich social, cultural, political histories and being, I don't know, I was gonna use the word humble, but humble doesn't even seem like it's the right word, but I'm gonna use it anyways. Being humble enough that you're, You're probably not the first one to think about all of these things. You're not the first one to experience these things. What can we actually learn from other people who have been here? And part of that is exploring the truth of where we are. So knowing the colonial history of so-called Australia, but also so many countries all over the world. Like, what does that actually mean for our organising?

  and acknowledging that we all have collective healing we need to do. So when we come together to talk about our values and talk about the future we want to have, how can we bring in learnings around, so it's like really great healing justice framework. So like, how do we bring those things into what we do? How do we have conversations about liberation in our future? So I think those are the things that ground the values, but it comes back to knowing that we're probably going to mess it up and how do you navigate that? Knowing and learning from others. And what was the third one I was going to say? No, that's gone. It's gone.

  Steve Spencer

  I was gonna bounce off what you were saying there, Amber, just, you you, you know, we all fuck up. And it's about taking that accountability when that happens. And also, of course, doing the work before, during and after. And so I wanted to touch on, like, what were some of the, what have been some of the biggest challenges you've faced in organising and also in sustaining a community like the Sydney Bi+ Network?

  Amber (they/them)

  Mm-hmm. I think something that I find particularly challenging is that sometimes within Bi+ communities specifically, there is not the acknowledgement that Bi+ communities are racist spaces. know, they're spaces that can be really transphobic. And, know, there are spaces that are not, well, I guess to say the spaces that we create as Bi+ people are not immune from, you know, all of these other social harms. And so I think sometimes Bi+ people can put Bi+ communities on a pedestal when we've, you know, more privileged Bi+ people can put Bi+ spaces on a pedestal. And I've been in situations in community where we've had TERFs attacking us, where we have people saying to us, why I don't understand, you only platform trans people because you have trans people in your leadership team. Like, what's up with that? So like having to navigate those kinds of conversations, I find that really challenging and really confronting. And I think you, I mean, you sustain it and you get through it by understanding how you want to show up to conflict. yeah, that's the third thing I was going to talk about was, yeah, how do you, how do you want to be, who do you want to be seen as when, when conflict arises and really reflecting on that because Bi+ spaces aren't immune to conflict.

  Chad Barnier

  Amber, it sounds like in so much of the work that you do, either through community or through, again, how you might turn up to conflict, that it is so intentionally gauged by how do I want the future to be, because the past is not necessarily the thing that would like it to reflect.

  that is quite profound that you are so actively thinking about the future. I would probably understand most people to be pretty reactive pre in the moment, but you seem to be very considerate about the future. Is that something you find innate to yourself? Have you always been future driven? Or has it taken working in these spaces as you do to develop a sense of well, that's important, so I'm going to prioritise that.

  Amber (they/them)

  I have always been a dreamer. I remember being a kid and just like having that like writing all of these grand plans are like, this is what kind of life I want. Like I've always been a dreamer. But I also think it's been really informed by a lot of the people that I read. like Octavia Butler is one of my, yeah, Octavia Butler.

  Chad Barnier

  Please tell us all of the reading recommendations. I love this.

  Steve Spencer

  Perfect.

  Amber (they/them)

  Her writing is just so stunning. You have to read with care because there's some really triggering bits to her writing. But she was really influential in maybe one of my all-time favourite books called Emergent Strategy, which is by Adrienne Marie Brown. And it's just like the guiding, like when I read Emergent Strategy, I was like, holy shit, this is like the language that I've been looking for.

  And emergent strategy is really based in how we show up in relationship to each other and how we show up in relation to the world and the principles that underpin emergent strategy, I think really are thinking about, well, change is always happening. So how do we interact with that? And what does that mean for our future? yeah, guess, yeah, to answer your question, I have...

  I think I have always been pretty future oriented. In fact, the last time I was visiting my parents, I found this like old box of my stuff and we were going through it. And there was like a book where I was drawing like, when I'm, I don't know, when I'm a grownup, I want to be, and I was like, I want to be the president and I want to be a teacher and I want to be a vet and I want to be a librarian. So was like all of the different multitudes of like what there could hold.

  Chad Barnier

  That's great.

  Steve Spencer

  Was BiCon on the list? Because you definitely got that.

  Amber (they/them)

  No, it wasn't. I had that language though when I was five. I'll just hop in my time machine and go back to five-year-old Amber and like definitely Bicon.

  Steve Spencer

  Hahaha.

  Chad Barnier

  Not good enough.

  Steve Spencer

  I reckon there are five year olds today who might know that word and I hope that we've got kids right now writing in their diary, I want to be a BiCon when I grow up.

  Chad Barnier

  That's fantastic. so okay, Steve and I have spent some time around the Sydney Bi+ Network, we've engaged in some of these spaces and some of the organising committee committees. And there is some fantastic work going on. But it's not without its challenges. There are you're working with volunteers, you're working with people who are it's it's quite emotionally and

  intelligently draining. There is a huge lack of funding and resources. How do you navigate all of those things? How do you turn up as and I say leader very loosely, because I know that it's not necessarily a term that you as someone who's so community focused might hold close. But as someone who is organising these people, how do you navigate some of these challenges because I mean I have a team at my work that they get paid a full-time wage and and we have systems and we have processes and expectations and that can be challenging you know you're working with volunteers and somebody resource limitations how do you do it

  Amber (they/them)

  It's really fucking hard. And something that I've had to really learn, and I'm still learning this because I still don't get it right, is how to say no to things. And knowing...

  I guess, you know, being able to.

  I don't want to burn people out. Like I've had conversations with people who were organising in Bi+ spaces years ago. And, you know, I remember asking them like, well, what happened? Like there was this really beautiful, vibrant community. What, where did it go? And one of the answers to that was people got burnt out. And again, we see that in lots of other movements. So, you know, the fact that we are volunteers.

  it does make it incredibly, incredibly hard. fact that we get no ongoing funding makes it damn near impossible to do the kind of stuff that we want to do. So I think it's, again, it comes back to having conversations with each other about where do we want to put our energies? And if we say yes to something, what are we going to say no to so we can direct our energy into that? And, and

  That's something that I mess up a lot. Like I am a chronic overcommitter. So, my God, I was listening to my astrology. I was listening to my astrology. we should. My astrologist podcast the other day was like, stop saying no to things. And I was like, stop calling me out like that. That's a bit rude. I know.

  Chad Barnier

  I am the same.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah. Hey, we should start a support group.

  Chad Barnier

  Ha

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah, whoa, you're staring straight into my soul. That's a bit weird.

  Amber (they/them)

  saying all of that. Like we are a collective. So when someone, you know, has whatever going on in their life that they need to, you know, step out of organising for a little while, like we celebrate that. And we say, look, like, I'm really proud of you. It's hard to in a world that is about constant grind. What can we do to resist that? And sometimes that's not just saying no to projects here and there, sometimes that means stepping away. And so when we do have people in the group that need space, we celebrate that. And I think it's also that we really, I really value and bring into SBN people leaning into their strengths. every time we have people together, it's like, what do you love to do or what do you want to learn to do? And let's grow that.

  So we're not doing projects that nobody gives a shit about or that, you know, nobody has the capability to do. And that in the sense of a true collective, like when everyone chips in, we can get it done.

  Chad Barnier

  Yeah, that's beautiful. I can attest to those values. There have been times where the SBN, I overcommitted myself in a season where I did not have the capacity. And I was met with so much grace and so much thoughtful consideration that I, I never received that anywhere. I was working a job that was very intense, working with vulnerable communities through COVID.

  I was working at a company that was very intense, working in volunteer communities through COVID, and I was like, my goodness.

  And I was like, well, I got to turn up for SBN and I over committed and yeah, and I was, I was just given so much space to just turn up the way that I could turn up and it was super cool. So I guess my follow up question to that is as someone who is organising, how do you avoid burnout or do you not get that same grace given to yourself by yourself?

  Amber (they/them)

  I need to give myself more grace, more compassion. I feel really lucky because I'm in a workplace right now that really values not just self-care but community care.

  Chad Barnier

  Wow.

  Amber (they/them)

  And so we talk a lot about what that means. And so I'm in an environment where being compassionate and not holding myself to impossible perfectionist standards is really permeating all the time. And I think that's been beneficial. I also go to a lot of therapy. that, yeah, love that. So I think that can be really helpful, but fuck, I'm bad at it. say, although actually I have an example of something that we said no to very recently that I feel quite proud about.

  Chad Barnier

  Yes, like, we love, we love.

  Amber (they/them)

  We got approached by a government body that's doing a whole of government statewide LGBTIQ plus strategy. And they wanted to include us in the stakeholder group. And at first we're like, yeah, really excited. Rah rah rah. And then when we asked, well, what are you, how are you going to compensate us for that? They were like, no, no, we can't, we can't do that.

  And you're not having to explain to them, we are all volunteers. If you want us to be at these meetings, we actually have to take work off because this is not our day job. and you know, there was quite a bit of back and forth and ultimately they just said, no, we're not going to pay you. So we had to say no to that. and the whales, LGBTIQ plus strategy. so.

  Chad Barnier

  Wow, name and shame, Amber, name and shame.

  Steve Spencer

  Yeah.

  Wow, it's late.

  Amber (they/them)

  I mean, that was really, really hard, but having to be honest and like for myself that like, I love that shit. Like that advocacy work is something that I'm so passionate about. And so for me to say actually, no, I'm not going to spend my time doing this because you're like as a project, as a, you know, a team that's organising it, putting it together, their values, they can't, they can't put

  They can't put their money where their mouth is. They say they care about these things. They say they care about equity, but aren't actually showing it. Had we said yes to that, we would have had to say no to something else that maybe would have had more impact for our community. I'm still not perfect at it, but every time I have one of those wins, do write it down. I'm a very big journal. I write a lot.

  Steve Spencer (50:58.221)

  Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (51:21.261)

  nice.

  Amber (they/them) (51:23.323)

  keep track of those things to remind myself and remind myself what it feels like to say no and like actually interrogate that for myself.

  Steve Spencer (51:32.152)

  I don't know about you too, but I get volunteer guilt sometimes because like you said, Amber, it's like, my God, this is my jam. Like, this is the shit that I really want to be doing and it's not paid. You might mention like, is there compensation? They'll say no. And you're like, but I just really, okay, I'll just do it. And I always keep on finding myself saying yes to things where...

  Chad Barnier (51:37.393)

  Mmm.

  Steve Spencer (51:59.35)

  I'm not getting compensation for my time. I'm a volunteer in all of these things. And you, I always wonder like, am I devaluing the work of our entire community by giving this for free? And what does that say about them as well? As you mentioned their values as well, the fact that, that, that they don't put the same value on our time as they would. mean, we're talking a lot here about volunteer circles and the buy plus community.

  Chad Barnier (52:22.951)

  Mm.

  Steve Spencer (52:28.766)

  And that's just reflective and how volunteer heavy it is. And that's just reflective. And Chad and I have talked about this of how underfunded severely underfunded this community, which is the largest portion of the LGBTIQ plus community, how minimal our funding is compared to other communities, you know, in that group. And if we did have day jobs in that sector, if we did have all of this, we would.

  have that ability and it's upsetting to think that they can actually jump over to another organisation that might not be focused on Bi+ issues, that might not even have Bi+ people at the helm and getting them to speak on our behalf. It's always really upsetting to think about that.

  Chad Barnier (52:59.975)

  Mm.

  Chad Barnier (53:14.245)

  Hmm.

  Amber (they/them) (53:16.911)

  Yeah, I'm so with you. I'm so with you. And I often get into this spiral of like, if Steve's not there, someone from SBN isn't there, if this handful of people aren't there, those people aren't gonna be represented. And then I have to remind myself that that's actually not our fault. Like this entire system is designed to exclude us. It's...

  Chad Barnier (53:17.403)

  Yeah, absolutely.

  Steve Spencer (53:30.446)

  Mm.

  Chad Barnier (53:37.917)

  Yeah.

  Steve Spencer (53:38.136)

  Yeah, it's not.

  Amber (they/them) (53:44.653)

  the systems that we're working within are not actually there for our liberation. And so like playing into that and just being like, well, I'll just do it. So there is some Bi+ representation. I don't know how good that is for us. I'm with you. It's really tough.

  Chad Barnier (53:55.197)

  Hmm.

  Steve Spencer (54:02.604)

  You know, I use the analogy of having a seat at the table and I've got so many unpaid seats at so many tables, my arse is sore. And it's like, you have to bring your own seat and it's not cushioned. And I pray for the day that we have funding for some cushions at the table because, know, we, we often are invited to those tables, but at such a severe disadvantage.

  Chad Barnier (54:10.991)

  Or you have to fucking bring your own seat.

  Amber (they/them) (54:31.193)

  Yes, yes.

  Chad Barnier (54:31.931)

  Yeah. It makes me think about how and where and when that can be solved and maybe not solve, maybe solved as too hopeful. But if, we are going to be going to spaces that need representation, need correction, need visibility, my assumption is they're not, they're not doing the work to

  Steve Spencer (54:32.78)

  And it's not enough. It's not enough.

  Chad Barnier (55:00.721)

  be equitable, pay, fund, et cetera. So my mind then goes to cool. Let's fund the heck out of community organisations. Fucking everyone call up Sydney Bi+ Network, fucking email and say, Hey, let's, let's like create a bit of a rainy day fund. So when someone likes the new South Wales government or someone else comes along and has their shitty policies that they won't pay, but we should have a seat at the table.

  then we as a community can say, know what, that's important enough to fund. Let's take it out of the kitty instead of, wow. Well, SBN had $300 all year instead of the 30 ,000, 300 ,000 that we should have to do all this great community work. Because it's just inevitable that the people who need the work from us aren't going to pay us. That's just how it's going to be.

  Amber (they/them) (55:54.779)

  Absolutely, and in those cases, it's for me two things. One, tokenistic. Like they want us there because they know they'll get their asses handed to them if they don't have some Bi+ representation. Yeah. And which is like the lowest fucking bar. Like the bar is on the floor for that. Yeah, exactly. And, and

  Steve Spencer (56:10.572)

  the day.

  Chad Barnier (56:19.035)

  Yeah, that someone was there in attendance.

  Steve Spencer (56:21.902)

  On their rickety chair.

  Amber (they/them) (56:24.411)

  their shoddily built IKEA chair. And two, exploitative, just exploitative. And for me, it doesn't always have to be financial compensation. Like I think about, well, when it's like major power holders, yeah, you know, tends to be financial compensation that I want for our time. But when we're working with other community groups, I think like, I care about working in partnerships that are reciprocal.

  Steve Spencer (56:34.776)

  you

  Chad Barnier (56:35.686)

  Yeah.

  Amber (they/them) (56:54.243)

  And so, you know, when it's working with other community groups or other, you know, community-based projects, it's how can we work together? What can we learn from you? What can you learn from us? And like that could be the compensation. It doesn't always have to be monetary, but when there's that really massive power dynamic, power differential, yeah, fucking pay us for our time. Yeah.

  Steve Spencer (57:17.23)

  Hey, Amber, I'm going to be cheeky here because I heard that Sydney Bi+ Network can receive donations for some of the upcoming Bi+ visibility events. So we can actually support our community groups. Could you tell us a little bit about that,

  Amber (they/them) (57:39.181)

  Yeah, I sure can. So at the moment, we're raising some money for our Bi+ Visibility Day event, which is called BiLines. This will be our sixth year running BiLines, which is my wildest dream.

  Chad Barnier (57:41.351)

  you

  Chad Barnier (57:49.349)

  Sleigh.

  Chad Barnier (57:53.327)

  It's the best for those listening. It's the best. Steve and I have been involved in different capacities at different times. It is a blast.

  Steve Spencer (57:53.633)

  Such a good event.

  Amber (they/them) (58:00.865)

  Yeah, it's the, it's the bi-light of my year, truly. But what it is, it's a story sharing event. So we invite BiCons to share a story about a particular theme this year. It's all about how we define norms, saying no to the status quo and what that means for our communities. So we do some story sharing and we do a community connector event. So, or activity for people to get to know each other.

  Chad Barnier (58:05.351)

  There we are.

  Amber (they/them) (58:30.351)

  and then a panel discussion. And we pay all of our story sharers, running a good event costs money. So we're raising money to pay our speakers for the venue and to make it happen, to bring it to life.

  Chad Barnier (58:40.231)

  Mm-hmm.

  Steve Spencer (58:47.286)

  Awesome, where can people go to donate some money?

  Chad Barnier (58:47.601)

  That's it.

  Amber (they/them) (58:49.989)

  People can go to our Instagram, which has got the link to the campaign. Sweet, thank you. It's gonna be great, so excited.

  Steve Spencer (58:56.545)

  Also, we'll link to that.

  Chad Barnier (58:58.483)

  yeah, I'm so excited for this event by the way. It's been, sorry, Steve.

  Steve Spencer (59:02.284)

  Yeah, I've had people, I've had people be like, and to the listeners, like, if you're one, if the question in your mind is, is this event for me? You're asking the correct question. Yes, the event is for you. I've had people say like, I'm only just like discovering myself. I'm only just coming out or, I don't want to take up someone else's space at that event. No, no, no, no, no. This is for you. This is for you, baby. Like.

  Chad Barnier (59:14.789)

  Hahaha

  Chad Barnier (59:29.884)

  Hmm.

  Steve Spencer (59:29.932)

  The BiLines, the Sydney Bi+ Network is made for people just like you, no matter where you are, no matter who you are. It's so brilliant.

  Chad Barnier (59:36.175)

  Hmm.

  we're talking before about the chairs at the table. Sydney Bi+ Network brings all the chairs and your name is on one of them. And, just to kind of decentralise for a moment, these events are often quite global. so like, Sydney Bi+ Network obviously services the so-called Sydney and surrounding areas if you are in the area.

  Amber (they/them) (59:39.257)

  it.

  Steve Spencer (59:46.572)

  Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (01:00:06.469)

  we've done online events previously, but we've collaborated with people across Australia in, Melbourne and Queensland, Perth and different places. but also to people listening abroad, there are spaces and, and what we kind of mentioned before about you almost have to be a bit of a, a bit of leap taker to kind of say, here I am, where are you? And there's a bit of a

  magnetisation that happens when you start to kind of pull up your hand, you'll see other people's hands lifting at the same time. And you go, cool. Okay, I found you. Cool. Let's go to the thing. Let's let's turn up. And the first time you might go to some of these events, it could be a bit awkward. Absolutely. We've all been to awkward events. But that's not specific to queer spaces. I go to my favourite theatre sometimes by myself and like, okay, I'm having a really bad house wine by myself.

  Steve Spencer (01:00:38.548)

  Yeah.

  Steve Spencer (01:00:49.089)

  in.

  Chad Barnier (01:01:00.925)

  But going to these spaces, it just takes one, two, three times turning up. So I guess, Hey, I recognise you come talk to me. I like you. We've got something in common, obviously. And so get along, go to, to, we've got, obviously Sydney Bi+ Network, but it's by visibility month, by visibility week, by visibility day. Be visible.

  Amber (they/them) (01:01:22.288)

  Yeah.

  Steve Spencer (01:01:22.734)

  Soon to be a quarter, we're going to take up the whole quarter and then maybe a whole year? A financial year?

  Amber (they/them) (01:01:25.819)

  Well, yeah.

  Chad Barnier (01:01:26.377)

  Yeah, look, I'm not sure if by visibility month is

  Amber (they/them) (01:01:29.691)

  That's not enough. Mine's not enough.

  Steve Spencer (01:01:31.98)

  Yeah, bisexual financial year.

  Amber (they/them) (01:01:34.587)

  Count me in.

  Steve Spencer (01:01:37.473)

  Alright, I think...

  Chad Barnier (01:01:39.131)

  I feel like by this day, by this week is a thing. I always say month, I feel like I'm maybe I'm great.

  Amber (they/them) (01:01:43.451)

  It's the month, it's month, it's month.

  Steve Spencer (01:01:43.854)

  It's month now. It's month now.

  Should we take a quick little three minute break?

  Amber (they/them) (01:01:51.599)

  Yeah, I'm gonna make a tea.

  Chad Barnier (01:01:53.703)

  Cool, love it.

  Steve Spencer (01:01:55.758)

  I'm gonna remove my headphones. So you...

  Chad Barnier (01:01:59.702)

  I know what that break is.

  Steve Spencer (01:04:26.409)

  yeah, of course. Just a week. You can do number twos.

  Steve Spencer (01:04:37.342)

  Hello? Is anybody there?

  Chad Barnier (01:04:41.469)

  Are you talking about Devil Wears Prada?

  Steve Spencer (01:04:43.236)

  no. it's weak.

  Chad Barnier (01:04:45.757)

  Can you hear me?

  Steve Spencer (01:04:48.116)

  It's super quiet, what? Is that me? yeah, no, I can hear you fine now.

  Chad Barnier (01:04:50.88)

  Perhaps? you hear me? Are we talking about Devil Wears Prada?

  Steve Spencer (01:04:57.586)

  Was I? Did you hear the whole conversation I was having?

  Chad Barnier (01:04:58.745)

  Yeah, just then. Not the whole I heard bits, I heard something about a number two.

  Steve Spencer (01:05:07.028)

  Yeah, there's like 10 people in my lounge room currently. Yes, they just watch. Yeah, there's a party happening.

  Chad Barnier (01:05:09.923)

  Really? What are you doing? Does Andrew have like a party on?

  Chad Barnier (01:05:16.731)

  What are they doing?

  Steve Spencer (01:05:18.612)

  They've been deciding what movie to watch for last two hours so if that tells you anything about their current headspace I they've been drinking for a while.

  Chad Barnier (01:05:23.362)

  invite me next time?

  Chad Barnier (01:05:31.046)

  That's well next time I would love to turn up to a party that is potentially going to watch Devil Wears Friday

  Amber (they/them) (01:05:37.358)

  I love that movie.

  Chad Barnier (01:05:39.643)

  It's not blue, it's not lapis.

  Steve Spencer (01:05:42.612)

  That's Cerulean. And what was it? It was Oscar De La Renta 2008, was it?

  Chad Barnier (01:05:48.175)

  Nice. demure. Very demure. Demure. Very mindful. Girl, you just need to get on TikTok. Stop hanging out on rails. Get on TikTok.

  Steve Spencer (01:05:50.46)

  I should know that off my heart.

  Amber (they/them) (01:05:53.563)

  Very mindful.

  Steve Spencer (01:05:54.344)

  Demure. Okay. What is this demure? We're recording, right? Yeah. Okay. What's this demure trend? Am I at?

  Amber (they/them) (01:06:02.779)

  on

  Steve Spencer (01:06:06.428)

  I'm probably on TikTok without knowing I'm on TikTok.

  Chad Barnier (01:06:09.585)

  Well, technically we have a give it to me by TikTok, little plug. and so technically you're on TikTok. So you just, you talk that tick and tick that top bit. No one says that by the way, people don't say that.

  Steve Spencer (01:06:12.467)

  We do.

  Steve Spencer (01:06:20.474)

  Tiki-Toki. The Tiki-Toki is how I call it. I'm like are you kids on the Tiki-Toki? Wow. So welcome back listeners to the Elder Millennial Show.

  Amber (they/them) (01:06:24.527)

  The ClipClock app, that's what I had. I had someone call it that the other day, I was like,

  Chad Barnier (01:06:26.427)

  The clip clap.

  Chad Barnier (01:06:34.141)

  Nice. We are judging and ranking people based on are they brat or are they chapel? Like what's the feminine phenomenon? No, well, I would love to have a little bit of a change of pace. I'm gonna see one sec.

  Amber (they/them) (01:06:43.301)

  No.

  Amber (they/them) (01:06:55.611)

  Bless you.

  Chad Barnier (01:06:57.492)

  Excuse me, sorry. When I drink wine, I get like allergies. Let's start again.

  Steve Spencer (01:07:03.038)

  Have you tried having antihistamines?

  Amber (they/them) (01:07:04.025)

  by NASA.

  Chad Barnier (01:07:05.743)

  I probably should but like I haven't drunk wine in a while but the last few podcasts have gone so much better when I have. So I'm a functioning alcoholic. No, so okay. Welcome back. I'd love to do a bit of a change of speed change of pace. Talk about a lot all the challenges some of the the frustrations and barriers to potentially running community organisation. What are some of the successes? What are some of the things that

  Steve Spencer (01:07:07.091)

  Yeah.

  Amber (they/them) (01:07:16.165)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:07:35.685)

  have been really like fills your heart some of the impact that you feel you've made and perhaps that you might have a particular view versus other people have a particular view. We spoke earlier, Steve and I have obviously been impacted by the work that you do. But what is what are some of the success stories or the impactful work that have come through leading SBN?

  Amber (they/them) (01:07:58.169)

  I think it's really about the connections that people are able to make. Like there is nothing like being in a room of other Bi+ people where you don't have to explain yourself, where you can just be. It's like, I've described it before as that exhale after you've been holding your breath for a really long time. Like that's what it is for me. Just like, yeah. And so I think that's the biggest impact that SBN has.

  Chad Barnier (01:08:21.307)

  Yeah, that's very accurate.

  Amber (they/them) (01:08:27.163)

  It's just being able to bring people together in an advocacy space. I am really, really proud of two things. Last year we worked with Alex Greenwich's office for him to write a speech for Bi+ Visibility Day. And as far as I know, it's the first time Bi+ people specifically and Bi Vis Day has been recognised in New South Wales Parliament, which is extraordinary.

  Chad Barnier (01:08:47.709)

  awesome.

  Amber (they/them) (01:08:57.751)

  Yeah, moment. And then, yeah, yeah, what a moment. And then that same week, actually, myself and someone else from community were on a panel for mental health services inquiry. And so just being able to speak about the truth of mental health services for Bi+ folks and having that recognised.

  Chad Barnier (01:09:01.789)

  That's fantastic.

  Amber (they/them) (01:09:26.235)

  And then to like be able to go back and see it in the ham sard, I was like, this is like wild. It was, it was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. It was so amazing. I damn near cried. Like we had to introduce ourselves at the beginning and I was like, I am Amber. And I like pulled myself together because it was just so powerful. It was really a moving moment.

  Chad Barnier (01:09:30.789)

  Hahaha.

  Steve Spencer (01:09:31.002)

  Wow, because that was at Parliament, wasn't it?

  Chad Barnier (01:09:34.289)

  Wow. I didn't know about that. That's exceptional. Fantastic work. Wow.

  Chad Barnier (01:09:51.633)

  Wow. That's exceptional. I love that you said it's like an exhale. I've kind of discovered it's almost like letting your shoulders down. It's almost like that like, gosh, my why I didn't realise my shoulders were up to my ears unnaturally. It's just like release of a muscle of like, people get it. Like there's a

  Steve Spencer (01:09:53.438)

  Congratulations.

  Amber (they/them) (01:09:53.925)

  Thank you. Thank you.

  Amber (they/them) (01:10:08.707)

  Okay.

  Amber (they/them) (01:10:13.871)

  Mm-hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:10:15.323)

  We all like green day. There's this kind of understanding in the room of like, I don't have to like, I don't have to fight for you to figure it out. I don't have to like, there's no political dance that we have to do together to like, just to recognise each other's reality. It's really quite beautiful. And obviously,

  Steve Spencer (01:10:17.679)

  Ahahaha!

  Steve Spencer (01:10:21.906)

  Totally.

  Chad Barnier (01:10:37.687)

  we've we've come together through a Sydney Bi+ Network. I would say that's one of your major achievements. But like the work that we worked on, we worked on a a bisexual health week, bisexual health awareness week. Is that I think that's it in February, March, I'm probably gonna get that wrong. We did that back in yet much.

  Steve Spencer (01:10:58.676)

  March is Bi+ Health Month.

  Chad Barnier (01:11:02.769)

  Thank you very much, Steve. So we had planned to do like a week, kind of worth of work and go back to what you're talking about before about values and kind of been led by values. We quickly realised that to do this kind of weak campaign about bio visibility and HIV health awareness in a in a Bi specific lens meant that shit, it's not going to be a week, it'll be a month worth of content and

  and the campaign that we ran after that was really quite wonderful. And, that's how Steve and I got to really know each other and the work that we wanted to do together was through a values led by specific lens. And, and so here we are with hoping to do something similar in a different capacity in a different medium. but I have witnessed, the community focus and that like to

  Amber (they/them) (01:11:45.401)

  you

  Chad Barnier (01:12:02.333)

  to able to speak to politicians, policymakers who don't identify with our community. That's really profound, Amber.

  Amber (they/them) (01:12:12.631)

  Yeah, it is. And I think about all of these things, all of the examples that we've just given as like ripples, like bringing people together and then like having conversations, making connections, doing a campaign. Like they're all parts of ripples that make waves. Like we need all of it to make change and we need all of it for our communities to be seen and safe and valued.

  Chad Barnier (01:12:21.79)

  Mmm.

  Steve Spencer (01:12:21.836)

  Mm

  Amber (they/them) (01:12:41.145)

  So it really blows me away when I think about.

  not just the amount of stuff that we've done, but the quality of the stuff we've done. It's like high caliber, like it's really incredible.

  Chad Barnier (01:12:55.053)

  Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

  Steve Spencer (01:12:57.204)

  Absolutely, there's a lot to be said about that as well. Maybe unfortunately that that things are taken seriously when they're done at such high quality when they're done at a high quality but something that Sydney Bi+ Network has always excelled at is No, we're gonna do this really right really right We're going to make it extremely attractive. We're gonna make it really extremely accessible as well

  Chad Barnier (01:13:25.467)

  Mm-hmm.

  Steve Spencer (01:13:26.418)

  And you're going to walk that hard, the hardest mile because actually like when you do something so well the first time, it can just be used and used and used and used as well. And those ripples will go out like, this, that the Bi+ health month that we did years ago, the presentations that we did are still being used today. Are still being used today because

  Chad Barnier (01:13:44.656)

  Mm.

  Chad Barnier (01:13:52.479)

  Yes, Steve, can you tell me about you and I were talking previously or recently about the work that you're doing in this HIV space and at NAPWHA is almost a direct tie to the campaign that we ran all those years ago through Sydney Bi+ Network.

  Steve Spencer (01:14:01.616)

  Mm.

  Steve Spencer (01:14:09.492)

  100 % a direct tie. We came together at Sydney Bi+ Network and said we need to increase the literacy around HIV within the Bi+ community, but not just that, we also need to give the health sector, the health space, our perspectives. So was sort of like a two-way conversation and like multiple ripples going out at the same time.

  And it really kicked off a huge awareness within Australia's HIV sector around the really unique needs for white plus people when it comes to HIV healthcare. And so like the ripples that you're talking about, I get absolute kicks when I hear about an event on a topic. So HIV and being multi-gender attracted. When I hear about an event that I have no idea who's running it or

  Chad Barnier (01:15:02.182)

  wow.

  Steve Spencer (01:15:03.066)

  or what it's about, and I hear about it happening and I'm like, okay, people are picking it up and running with it. And for you to actually lose the degree of separation for something to get its own legs is like the ultimate, like the best feeling. It also means that we're one step closer to retirement when something like that happens and I'm looking forward to that day.

  Chad Barnier (01:15:11.643)

  Mmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:15:18.822)

  Wow.

  Chad Barnier (01:15:22.503)

  Mm.

  Amber (they/them) (01:15:28.911)

  Yes, yes, yes. I can't wait.

  Chad Barnier (01:15:29.57)

  Yeah, it's like, yeah.

  Steve Spencer (01:15:31.572)

  I don't know about you.

  Chad Barnier (01:15:35.741)

  Yeah, actually, that's a great, great point. Amber, is that something that like, as someone who has kind of held the reins for a while, is that something that you are looking to do to make yourself irrelevant or build up? I know that like up-skilling was a big priority when I was involved in SBN. Is that something that you're hoping to do is to go, hey, okay, 17 different people go lead, have fun, like, like organise.

  Steve Spencer (01:15:42.044)

  Mm.

  Amber (they/them) (01:16:04.187)

  Absolutely. Yes is the answer. I felt like a bobblehead as you were saying that because absolutely. And it's actually one of the things I mentioned emergent strategy earlier and some of the principles that make up emergent strategy and decentralisation is one of the core elements of that. like I've learned and I truly believe that it is not a movement if it's just one person.

  Chad Barnier (01:16:06.865)

  You

  Steve Spencer (01:16:09.512)

  Same.

  Chad Barnier (01:16:10.211)

  You

  Chad Barnier (01:16:18.352)

  Mm.

  Chad Barnier (01:16:24.209)

  Hmm.

  Amber (they/them) (01:16:31.419)

  And everyone is going to bring their own strengths and their own connections and their own passions and ideas and lived experiences into the work. And so it is so important to me that it's not, you know, the same five, 10 people running things all the time because we need, we need those different intersections being represented. We need different ideas into it. And I mean, my, my ultimate dream is for

  SBN to not have to do the work that we do because the world is just okay for Bi+ people. But until we get there, like I want people to bring themselves and you know, whatever comes with that into being part of SBN.

  Chad Barnier (01:17:06.523)

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (01:17:18.94)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:17:22.727)

  It sounds like it's almost one of the...

  you're talking about before you've been so future focused is that one day you know that you won't be at the helm or being directly involved in the organising of it. That a part of that is probably why the values are so important that like one day I won't be here. And so the values that I hold, I want them to stay without me having to enforce them. And so if Steve or Chad or Susie Ryan and, and whoever

  Amber (they/them) (01:17:28.985)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:17:56.891)

  down the road want to be a part of the organising committee at SBN. They have a framework, a baseline of what values our community want to uphold.

  Steve Spencer (01:18:07.752)

  Yeah, because people leave, but values live.

  Amber (they/them) (01:18:10.533)

  Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that sometimes when people hear about a Sydney Bi+ Network or even Bi+ groups all around the world, they sometimes think, well, if it's just identity focused, like, how do you actually get things done? And I think that's that can differentiate SBN from other identity driven

  Chad Barnier (01:18:32.829)

  Mm

  Amber (they/them) (01:18:39.717)

  community groups because we're so values based. And I know this is something that actually it took me a little while to come to terms with because for a while I was like, know.

  Chad Barnier (01:18:44.723)

  I love that.

  Amber (they/them) (01:18:56.261)

  Sydney Bi+ Network is for any Bi+ person who wants to come and find community. And then I realised maybe that's actually not true. Like maybe we don't want the Bi+ people who are creating harm. Like maybe we don't want the Bi+ people who are TERFs and maybe we don't want the Bi+ people who are being really racist in our spaces. And so to be able to articulate, you know, why it is that we are so intentional.

  Chad Barnier (01:19:02.727)

  Hmm.

  Amber (they/them) (01:19:24.941)

  about anti-racist spaces, about intersectionality being core to our organising around justice. That all comes back to having the values. And having those values is what makes it live on.

  Chad Barnier (01:19:32.913)

  Mm.

  Chad Barnier (01:19:43.663)

  Hmm. And I'll just say the best bisexuals have those values. The best bisexuals are not tough. So I have kind of two questions based on the positive vibes. I imagine there's someone listening here who's pretty fired up, pretty excited. Fucking hell. I could see this happening in my community.

  Steve Spencer (01:19:51.208)

  The the gold star bisexuals.

  Chad Barnier (01:20:13.019)

  And they recognise, damn, it might have to be me. Maybe I need to be the one to put my hand up and be that by lighthouse to be the organiser, to be, to start something. And perhaps then someone else can, can follow my momentum. Amber, can you run me through what a first month, a first quarter, a first year might look like for someone who

  Amber (they/them) (01:20:36.901)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:20:42.535)

  dares to do something a little bit brave and say, I'm going to do this in Mississippi, I'm going to do this in Canberra, I'm going to do this in Tokyo, I need to start a buyer community and I'm going to start that that charge.

  Amber (they/them) (01:20:59.641)

  Yeah, firstly, I'm gonna say, fuck yeah, do it. Secondly, I think a first little while looks like a lot of learning and a lot of listening. So by that, mean, if you can see what you can learn about, if you don't already know what's the queer histories of where you are, have there been other Bi+ groups?

  Steve Spencer (01:21:03.39)

  Yeah.

  Amber (they/them) (01:21:27.331)

  in a hell of a lot of places there have been. And I think it's really important to be able to connect and learn from what's come before us and to listen. Like when we first got SBN off the ground, I wanna say like the first, I don't even know how many months was listening. Like we were convening spaces for people to input into what we were doing. We were having conversations about what community building means, about what advocacy means, about what education means.

  Steve Spencer (01:21:30.61)

  Mm.

  Chad Barnier (01:21:47.933)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:21:57.659)

  What does that look like on a practical sense to get in? How? What does it look like to hold those spaces to question to listen? What does that mean?

  Amber (they/them) (01:21:59.46)

  Yes.

  Amber (they/them) (01:22:05.275)

  Yeah, so we what we did was we held listening sessions that can be called whatever you want. But I like them as listening sessions. You know, we held them at a local community organisation, we held them on a university campus. So putting them in different places for people to be able to access them and advertising the shit out of them so that people know that they're on.

  And going in with some questions to actually guide your discussion, but being so totally willing to let go of those questions and just let, I'm going to go back to emergent strategy again. I know I keep talking about it, but I really love it so much. And there's something in Adrienne Marie Brown's book around there only being a conversation that you can have with people while you're in that room in that moment.

  So the idea being like, anytime you have a conversation about something, changes shape, it changes form. You've got different lived experience embedded into it. So really being present in the conversations that you're having and let community tell you what it is that they care about, what it is they want to see. Using that to create the structure of your organisation. So for example, you know, we heard that people really wanted spaces that were not just about alcohol.

  So I was like, all right, community picnics, cool. Does that sound like something you don't want to go to? Yes, great, we're doing picnics, amazing. Or storytelling, what does that look like? What does that mean? How can we embed that into what we do? So always, always listening and providing different ways for people to give that feedback and give their input. So along with the listening sessions,

  Chad Barnier (01:23:41.127)

  Mm.

  Amber (they/them) (01:24:02.863)

  We did like online forums, not everybody can or wants to turn up in person. So giving people different opportunities to tap in and share what they care about. And then really that led, all of that for us led to a picnic. Like we did a community picnic. That was our first big thing. And so I think being open to listening and hearing.

  from people in community and using that to shape what your next steps are. And I think sometimes that can be really scary because sometimes people, and when I say people, it includes myself, like want to control every step along the way. But I think in community organising, you've gotta let go a little bit. Like sure, have a roadmap, have a framework. I think that's really important to work within. But the concrete steps to getting there or the concrete steps.

  Chad Barnier (01:24:45.063)

  you

  Amber (they/them) (01:24:58.757)

  to getting your Bi+ community group off the ground might look really different depending on the context you're in and depending on what it is the people in community want.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:04.561)

  Hmm.

  Steve Spencer (01:25:10.014)

  So you're sort of saying like the answers are already out there. It's like you don't have to invent a wheel, a new wheel. You just have to ask people what type of wheel they want.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:10.267)

  I love that.

  Amber (they/them) (01:25:12.739)

  Yeah.

  Amber (they/them) (01:25:19.493)

  Totally, totally. And there are so many great Bi books out there as well. Like, Notes for a Bisexual Revolution fucking changed my life. Like that was so pivotal to my, and still is to my Bi organising. There's amazing books about bisexual men. Like there's just really great content out there. So I would really recommend like getting, really getting into that as well to shape what you do.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:21.969)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:30.119)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:33.649)

  Hmm.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:48.167)

  So quick dis clarification. So you mentioned before, Adrian Murray Brown is you referencing the book pleasure activism.

  Amber (they/them) (01:25:54.843)

  No, but she also wrote Pleasure Activism. Adrienne Marie Brown wrote Emergent Strategy as well.

  Chad Barnier (01:25:59.227)

  Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:03.089)

  Gotcha. Okay. was that Octavia Butler? Did you mention that?

  Amber (they/them) (01:26:06.459)

  Octavia Butler helped inform Emergent Strategy. So Octavia Butler is like this really amazing Black sci-fi writer and one of her books.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:11.181)

  Thank you.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:16.701)

  Cool. Yeah.

  Amber (they/them) (01:26:20.699)

  Parable of the Sower and the sequel, can't remember the sequel, Parable of the Talents has got emergent strategy in it. So Adrienne Marie Brown has like used principles from that book, from those books and conversations with other people as well as other organising principles to develop emergent strategy. And it's just one of the best books I've ever read in my whole life.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:30.727)

  Gotcha.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:35.89)

  Yeah.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:46.427)

  Yeah, great. And then notes notes for a bisexual revolution. That's Sheree Eisner. Great. Awesome.

  Steve Spencer (01:26:47.068)

  nerding out. I'm

  Amber (they/them) (01:26:50.671)

  Correct. Yeah.

  Steve Spencer (01:26:53.18)

  This is such a delicious conversation.

  This is just scrumptious. I'm aiding this up.

  Chad Barnier (01:26:58.457)

  Okay. I am loving this.

  Amber (they/them) (01:26:59.536)

  I'm just going.

  Chad Barnier (01:27:06.309)

  Steve, I don't know about you. I have like one kind of final question. Do you have anything before I jump into that one?

  Steve Spencer (01:27:19.302)

  Amber, looking back on this, how does it make you feel?

  Amber (they/them) (01:27:25.005)

  Amber (they/them) (01:27:28.291)

  It makes me feel so much joy to be who I am. I think about, I think about the fact that...

  Steve Spencer (01:27:33.15)

  Mm

  Amber (they/them) (01:27:41.049)

  I used to feel so much shame about who I am and I used to feel so scared of who I am and now I'm just happy to sing it from the rooftops. Like, put me on a mountain and I'll shout it. Like, I love being bisexual. I love being in community and I feel so proud of the friendships that I've made along the way.

  I really mean it when I say I've met some of my very best friends from being in community. I'm get a little emotional.

  Chad Barnier (01:28:15.525)

  Yeah, I'm about to cry.

  Steve Spencer (01:28:15.732)

  Yeah, my eyes are actually welling up, Amber, that's so beautiful.

  Amber (they/them) (01:28:19.84)

  Yeah, I feel so proud. And I want to tell my younger self that like to keep going because it's all fucking worth it.

  Steve Spencer (01:28:23.903)

  we apparently...

  Chad Barnier (01:28:31.157)

  Amber, that's, I'm a little bit crying. That's so wonderful. And one of the, something that's so exciting about all of this is that like, this is such a microcosm of the bio experience across the world. All right. This is Sydney, pretty small, like maybe large for us because we're here, but there's so many different potential communities popping up all over the world. And some are really beginning to flourish.

  Steve Spencer

  I'm literally crying.

  Chad Barnier

  Some are just starting, some, like we saying before, at a conception stage, maybe just an idea, a spark. One of the things that really hit me a few years ago when we ran a COVID BiLines, big kind of by visibility there, we collaborated with other communities. And I see that has been a bit of a power for our community in like going forward into the future is this connection, collaboration and an opening up a blossoming into a wider bisexual community. Because we've been told to be so small and so so private for such a long time. Do you have any recommendations, wisdom insight into how we might connect our communities locally, across the nationally, internationally, globally? Any insight as to how we as bisexuals here in so called Sydney might connect with LA or Tokyo or Sweden.

  Amber (they/them)

  It's incredible because I think that it's probably never been easier to connect with people all over the world. So we are in this really unique position where we've got it at our fingertips. And we know, like we've learned so many lessons from other movements that, you you're most effective when you're working together, like collective action works. And so I think, like there are really, really cool things out there.

  I find out about groups through TikTok. Like the Bi content on TikTok is amazing. So good. The TikTok app has great bisexual content. But also like there's some really great stuff coming up for Bi+ Visibility Day. So like a lot of groups now is the time that they're gonna be sharing a lot of their content, sharing ways to get involved.

  Steve Spencer

  yeah, the Tiki-Toki.

  Chad Barnier

  I'm gonna need you to send me some recommendations.

  Amber (they/them)

  So like I think people should have a look around for that. Here in so-called Australia, the Stand Bi Us Conference will be running again. So that'll be all online. like, know, link, link into that, because there's some really, really cool events happening. And I know that there's also global Bi+ meetups that happen. And it's like people from all over the world on a Zoom chatting with each other just about life.

  And it's just, yeah, it's amazing to be able to connect because even though we're all in, you sometimes we all get in our own bubbles, there's this really beautiful shared experience of being Bi+. And so to come together and talk about that and talk about what that means and to make friends and have a laugh is just, yeah, it's incredible.

  Chad Barnier

  That's wonderful. Yeah, I like, for the past three minutes, I've been like crying or on the verge of crying. And I'm just like trying to like not let it completely drown my microphone.

  Amber (they/them)

  Well, you know, that's the other thing that, sorry, to go back to your question before about, you know, for someone who wants to get involved in organising, like, don't be afraid of the emotion that can come with it, because it can be really, really emotional. And that's okay, because emotions are not good or bad, they just are. And so like, lean into that.

  Chad Barnier

  That sounds like someone who's done a minor in psychology.

  Amber (they/them)

  Hmm. Or someone who's been to a lot of therapy.

  Steve Spencer

  The therapist is paying off. Thank you.

  Chad Barnier

  there we are. That's fantastic. Amber, this has been such a treat. I truly, truly just have adored this hour and a half we spent together. Thank you so much for taking the time to show your wisdom, your experiences, your insight into community organising, it's just been an absolute treat.

  Amber (they/them)

  Thank you, I've had so much fun and I'm so excited for this whole podcast. It's gonna be so amazing.

  Steve Spencer

  Make sure you check out to the listeners, follow Sydney Bi+ Network on Instagram. Keep an eye out for in your local area for things happening for Bi+ Visibility Month weekday. Soon to be financial year.

  Chad Barnier

  Very excited.

  Chad Barnier

  Absolutely. And really, if there is an ultimate call to action, send and money and finance your local bisexual organisation. They are doing some fantastic work, whether it's Sydney, whether it's Toronto, I'm having fun really kind of imagining names of cities, whether that is Michigan, whether that is Paris.

  Steve Spencer

  New Delhi, Buenos Aires

  Chad Barnier

  There we are. Yeah, like they are out there fighting the good fight and funding those organisations directly really, really empowers those groups to do good work and, and work for you. So if you have the capacity to do so, please follow along, fund, participate. It goes a long way.

  Steve Spencer

  #PayYourBisexuals.

  Chad Barnier

  That's the new one, that's the new hashtag. We'll put it on some shirts. Coming soon.

  Amber (they/them)

  I love it.

  Steve Spencer

  #PayYourBisexuals

  Chad Barnier

  Awesome. Amber, thank you so much.

  Amber (they/them)

  Thank you.

  Steve Spencer

  Thank you, Amber

Show Notes

In this episode, we delve deep into the power of community organising and how it drives Bi+ visibility.

Joined by guest Amber from the Sydney Bi+ Network (SBN), we explore the transformative impact of grassroots activism in the bi+ community, celebrate milestones in visibility, and address the ongoing challenges of representation and systemic inequities.

This conversation shines a light on what it means to build and sustain inclusive spaces while juggling the personal, political, and emotional complexities of advocating for Bi+ communities.

Main Discussion Points

Origins of the Sydney Bi+ Network

• Amber recounts the beginnings of SBN during the aftermath of the 2017 Marriage Postal Survey in Australia, which was a divisive time for the LGBTQIA+ community. Driven by a sense of alienation in other queer spaces, Amber saw the need for a dedicated Bi+ community and organiSed the first Bi+ Visibility Day event in 2018.

• The network has since grown into a vibrant collective, serving as a beacon for Bi+ individuals across Sydney, offering connection and support.

Bi+ Visibility and Grassroots Activism

• The episode emphasises the importance of visibility within both the broader LGBTQIA+ movement and society at large. Steve highlights the rise in Bi+ representation in national HIV advocacy over the past two years, an achievement that began with SBN’s foundational work.

• Amber and Steve share powerful moments of visibility, like Bi+ flyers being eagerly picked up at workplaces and international conferences, illustrating the hunger for Bi+ representation.

• The need for intentional spaces that address the unique struggles of the Bi+ community is discussed, highlighting the frequent challenges of feeling unseen in predominantly gay and lesbian spaces.

Challenges in Community Organising

• Organising on a volunteer basis with little to no funding is a recurring struggle, making sustainability difficult. Amber speaks candidly about burnout and the pressure placed on Bi+ advocates to represent a community that remains vastly underfunded despite its size.

• A key point of discussion is navigating tokenism and exploitation in larger institutional settings where Bi+ representation is included only superficially without fair compensation or support.

Bi+ Visibility Day and Future Goals

• The conversation turns to Bi+ Visibility Day, with Amber sharing plans for SBN’s sixth annual BiLines event. This celebration of Bi+ stories and community, where participants share personal narratives on defying norms, is a cornerstone of the network’s activism.

• Chad and Steve emphasise how crucial events like these are for both raising awareness and fostering a sense of belonging within the Bi+ community.